DHES

Dale,

Have been looking through the forums here the last few days and have a question about setting up key blanks in DHPOS. I run a Mail and Parcel Centre with a key cutter and am wondering how you would set up DHPOS to keep track of the various standard and specialty key blanks, seeing as how you work in a key department.

I've got three key towers with about 760 hooks with about 500 individual keys at present. I've also got specialty keys (flags, Homer Simpson, Elvis Presley, Disney, magnetic, hockey team logo, large head, etc.) in WR5/KW1 combo keys and SC1/some other key combo and some of them individually WR5 (but not KW1) etc. As I get requests or see keys that I think will sell, I bring them in.

I'm planning on building a display rack with the specialty key storage behind a glass door for security purposes to prevent keys from walking away. The cabinet would be about 27 inches wide with about 60 inches vertical display but only a few inches deep that would hang on a wall so customers can see the specialty keys. Not sure how many hooks I will have here, and I could do a second specialty display cabinet as well.

Half of the keys are ILCO with the other half being Curtis, Dominion, and other brands. Wondering how you would handle it for selecting the key when it could be any one of however many key identifiers to choose from (ILCO, EZ, Curtis, etc.).

How would you/did you set up the stock table and groupings for doing this for keys and key accessories and any locks, handsets, peepholes, etc.

Thanks for the info.

Reginald

Dale,

As you know, there are no UPC numbers on the keys, but there are some carded keys with UPC numbers. I can get the UPC numbers for the various ILCO keys but would have no UPC for some of the keys. Printing UPC labels seems wasteful and then you have the glue residue on the key to get rid of.

Use ILCO numbers in the vendor code, use the EZ number, use a combination code and how to do it when a Curtis number is different from ILCO or EZ?

I'm still in the process of trying to organize keys and am moving keys from hook to hook to keep them in some sort of order, so using a peg number would not be practical either.

Thanks for the ideas.

Reginald

Wow, finally a question I am TOTALLY qualified to answer. Mainly because this is WHAT I DO.

Curtis has been out of business for a while and Dominion was purchased a long time ago by ILCO. I would go with using the ILCO E-Z numbers for stocking / organizing the keys. If you have a blank made by a company other than ILCO use the ILCO number anyway. For those keys that do not have E-Z numbers I would use the regular ILCO numbers like O1007RA but try to keep all of the blanks for the same lock manufacturer together so that if someone comes in with a key for a Sargent lock all the Sargent blanks would hang together.

In my shop I do not use DHPOS to keep track of my key blank inventory. When time comes to order keys I take out the paper order forms and go through the racks to see what I need. The paper order forms have listed all the keys that I can order and I just write in the box on the form what I will be ordering. I use this method because I like it and because of miscuts which can take blanks out of inventory but since they are not rung up they will not be removed from the DHPOS inventory.

This means that the stock lines for keys in DHPOS are for the TYPE of keys. For example...
<PRE>
60003 BRASS KEY ONE SIDE 2.59
60002 BRASS KEY TWO SIDE 2.59
60000 COLOR KEY ONE SIDE 2.99
60004 COLOR KEY TWO SIDE 2.99
60005 FOREIGN BRASS KEY 3.99
60008 RUBBER HEAD DOMESTIC 4.29
61080 RUBBER HEAD IMPORT 4.29
etc.
</PRE>

These stock numbers are forced on me by my host store (don't ask) but they could be one digit numbers for you. However in my stock table the keys are all listed in the first 20 lines so I can ring them up by pressing only the letters from [A] to [T]

However you can keep track of the key blank inventory in the stock table if you want to by entering the key blank number into the "Vendor stock number" column of the stock table. You can even enter several variations of the stock number, for example the ILCO and the ILCO EZ numbers...

999 Y1
1145 SC1
1176 KW1
A1145C SC4
etc.

and you can add the Dominion numbers too.

Read this about using vendor stock numbers to ring up items into a sale http://keyhut.com/faq.htm#vendor

When using vendor stock numbers the program will search for any occurance of the search string. So in the above sample using the search string "SC1" or "1145" will find the same blank. If it finds the wrong blank just hit the key to tell the program to keep searching.

For the actual stock numbers you can use the ILCO numbers that are printed on the box or bag like 5268578 or if you do not use the ILCO numbers you can just make up your own stock numbers.

The trick it to be able to look at the key and be able to figure out the vendor stock number so for the "fashion" keys you would have numbers like...

KW1 FLOWER
KW1 FLAG
SC1 MINNIE
SC1 DONALD
WR3 MLEAFS
etc.

The other trick is at order time to be able to look at the vendor stock numbers and be able to figure out the number you need to use to actually order the blank from your vendor.

Thanks for the comments Dale, they are very much appreciated. You obviously have a lot of experience in what you do, both key cutting and in doing the POS.

I especially enjoyed looking at the Key Hut information and pictures. Ideas on how to display and store the wide variety of key equipment can be very useful. Also gave me some ideas that I might be able to implement here to make the service better.

I do the same going into the hardware stores to see how they have their key section set up, what accessories they offer as well as their pricing structure. These places are my competition, but they are also my teacher showing me how to do things better, do things differently than what I am doing and give me ideas that might work for me. I've visited other cities and talked to staff at these places asking them the good, bad and ugly of what they do and what is imposed on them, again giving me ideas that I can use.

It will be a bit of work to get the keys sorted and entered. I've started with a listing from Ilco showing off their most common keys from their website and going to one of my suppliers with my list of keys/actual keys to see what keys I am missing that I should have available for sale. I'm saving the poly bags that have the UPC number on them along with the key description and entering this into my spreadsheet.

As I add more keys, my key carousels change as I have to move things around to make everything fit. I'll add in new key manufacturers and have to shuffle parts to another part of the next carousel. Finding keys that are the same as another key can sometimes shift things around depending on how much each key is known by its own key number. I'm not the only one cutting keys, so there has to be a way to easily find the right blank, whomever is cutting keys.

I have some other questions, not necessarily POS related, other than trying to sort out one section on keys that I know a little bit about with someone who knows a lot about both the keys and the organization of it into the POS. Perhaps it can be used as an example for anyone else.

If you don't want to answer or don't want it public, let me know, but if the master is ready, the student is willing and wanting to learn.

How many different price levels do you have with your keys or how many would you suggest would be ideal? This would be for common keys as specialty or high end keys could have their own levels based upon cost, customer demand and competition.

Do you have a printed stock table/list of keys to use as a reference, either as a text file or actually printed on paper? Would you recommend one?

Do you enter in any special order keys into the POS that you think are one-off's:
- as their own stock number? (new stock number as added per key)
- assign a single stock number for special order keys no matter how many special order keys might be added at any price range?
- have several special order key price price ranges that the special order key might fit onto?

How many SKU's/PLU's do you think would be necessary considering your key Hut example page says only about 600 individual keys are stocked?

For specialty keys such as the hockey ones, would you just say "WR5 NHL key" for any of they hockey keys or make it "WR5 Oilers" and add in all teams and then "SC1 Oilers" and add in all teams or simply have "NHL Key" for all WR5 and SC1 for NHL keys or "Oilers" for either WR5 or SC1 keys but have a key stock number for each team. This of course gets multiplied by the number of each specialty groupings and is dependent upon how closely one wants to track each specific key or groupings to see what is popular and what is/is not selling.

For the vendor part number, use the Ilco number separated by a space then the EZ key number but then would you suggest putting some kind of coding C: or C_ for Curtis, D: or D_ or d_ for Dominion, etc. Could use lower case as the separator and use upper case when part of the key code or vice versa.

How about putting SARGENT: for any Sargent key numbering, YALE: for Yale, SCHLAGE: for Schlage, etc for each key manufacturer followed by the specific key code for that manufacturer, either preceeded by the ILCO and EZ number(s)?

What about noting Motorcycle keys apart from the rest? Or automotive keys apart from the rest?

What separator character would be best to use in the DHPOS in the vendor code if doing the above?

What text character(s) would be best NOT to use in the vendor code in the DHPOS?

The vendor code, with the items above becomes much more than a stock lookup number, it becomes a catalog coding system/key description. Colour codings (such as plastic headed keys in different colours) or socks or anything else with different choices. What would you use as your criteria for putting this type of criteria into the vendor coding?

Thanks for your thoughts and insight into this topic. Glad that I can put your vast expertise and experience to use to train us how to use the POS better. I and I hope other appreciate it.

Reginald

Reginald,

I will give you a detailed reply tomorrow.

But the question we need answered first is do you want to list each and every key in the stock table, if so why?

Or do you want to list only the types of keys (which is what I do) and ring them up that way.

Examples of types of keys are...

BRASS ONE SIDED
BRASS TWO SIDED
COLOR ONE SIDED
COLOR TWO SIDED
FOREIGN AUTO
BLACK PLASTIC HEAD KEYS
STEEL KEYS
TUBULAR KEYS
TRANSPONDER KEYS
MEDECO KEYS
PAINTED KEYS
TEAM KEYS
etc.

Another thing to consider is that there are many key blanks out there currently in production that if you carry them you will sell very few, like maybe one a year, or it is possable that you will never, ever sell even one. Just because you can carry a key it does not mean that you should. For example I do not think that you will ever sell a key for a Yugo no matter how many you have. Before you stock a key ask yourself if anyone has ever asked you for one.

Dale

Thanks for the reply Dale.

I don't want to stock every key as it is too costly and would take up too much space and time trying to keep the keys organized. However, I do want to keep the most common, the most wanted keys that will sell well. I'm willing to bring in special keys if there is a demand and I could do something that requires a minimum of a couple keys sold to be able to pay off the requirement to bring in 5 or 10 keys. I can sometimes get my supplier to comp me a specific key that is not very popular. I've gotten one-offs of a wide range of keys so that I have one of each in stock and if/when I sell it I will buy another or a bag of keys to takes its place.

Without tracking what keys are selling and which keys are being asked for that are not in stock, it is impossible to know what to stock. Every area of a specific city might have pockets of specialty keys that are not very popular elsewhere in the same city, or that might be popular in my city but have never or hardly ever been sold in yours.

Just wondering what is a better way to manage the needs and demands of keys and since you have done this for a while and written your own POS to handle this type of thing specifically but also generally for most anything else, I'd ask your thoughts.

Most appreciated.

Reginald

Well things happened at the keyshop today and I am being dragged by my wife to a Christmas party tonight so I will not be able to reply here until tomorrow night.

Dale

The difference between men and women.... javascript:emoticon(':P')

No worries on reply time. I'm up to my butt in packages to be shipped out of here so I know how it goes. I'm still experimenting and seeing what works, doing ideas and making plans for the new year for the POS.

A day or a week at present don't mean a whole heck of a lot on this stuff right now. I appreciate the knowledge and information you are giving. I've picked the brains of my suppliers on what sells, what doesn't and am just trying to get through the busy Christmas season to get into some renovations to make this place better. Too many things to do and not enough time, energy or money to do it all.

Enjoy your Christmas party.

Reginald

Dale,

Off topic on the POS, but just wondering:

What are your best/better selling keys?

Do you program the transponder keys or just do straight cutting?

Do you code cut?

For us, we cut more Schlage (SC1) and Weiser (WR5/WR3) than anything else for our customers. Kwikset (KW1 mostly, but some KW10). For ourselves, we have private mailboxes and have MR1, P54F and Hudson H20 that we cut on a regular basis.

Everything else is about even but a lot of Ford, GM and Chrysler keys, a bit less on the imports but a number of them too. I'm trying to put up a display of the specialty/Klinky keys for impulse buyers coming through here so I can sell them better.

We don't do transponders or code cutting, at least at present. Maybe one day, but I'd lean more towards an engraver and then a code cutter. Have to check if I require a licence to operate a code cutter though.

Take care.

Reginald

Reginald,

The first thing you have to do before layout you key racks is to decide what keys you are going to carry. You do not have to pick every key, just most of them. The secret is to leave empty hooks here and there to be able to add new keys to your assortment without having to totally reorganize the rack.

My house keys are laid out by the lock manufacturer. AMERICAN, AMERICAN PINSETTER, ARROW, BARROWS, etc. If you use the E-Z numbers to tag the keys this puts the rack in alphabetical order AM1, AM3, AM7, , , AP1, AP2, AP3, AP4, AP5, AR1 etc. Notice that there are 3 unused hooks between AM7 and AP1. If AMERICAN comes out with new keys those hook is where the new keys will go. There are no empty hooks between AP5 and AR1 because there will never be new AMERICAN PINSETTER keys.

Many ILCO keys will not have E-Z numbers. In that case look in the back of the ILCO key blank manual at the CURTIS or COLE cross reference and use them, or just make one up. Or even better use this program http://www.dhpos.com/keyfind.zip to assign E-Z numbers to your keys. That way you can also use that program to look up a customer’s keys and it will tell you which key to use by E-Z number. Note, the program was last updated in 2005.

My keys are laid out in 3 sections, house keys, domestic car keys, foreign car keys. Each section is in alphabetical order. The color and black plastic head keys are hung with the brass keys so for the GM key B44 there will be 6 hooks in a row for brass, black, blue, red, green, yellow. Specialty keys are hung separately so that the customers can look through them. I only carry KW1 (KW10) and SC1 as specialty keys because in my shop WR3 is a slow mover.

You do not have to carry every keyway in every length. On really slow movers I carry only the longest version and then just cut then down to the proper length. If the program above gives you only a substitute blank then I carry only the substitute. There is no point in carrying two blanks to do the same thing.

I have different prices for the following…
Brass one sided
Brass two sided
Color one sided
Color two sided
Brass foreign car
Black plastic head domestic car
Black plastic head import car
Tubular (1137B)
Medeco
V.A.T.S
Domestic transponder
Import transponder
Painted
Sports
Steel / Precut

You will have to set your own prices depending on what the blanks cost you and what your competitors are charging. However I have always charged more than my competitors do. Most of them have closed, I am still here.

I do have a list of keys that I carry somewhere. However it has about 2000 different keys on it many of which I will never sell again even though I never throw a blank away. Just 3 months ago I sold a key for a 1957 Vespa scooter.

Some of your questions about what I do on the POS system I cannot answer because I only list the type of key on the stock table, not each individual key.

If you are going to list each key in your stock table I would say that you would need 3,000 lines. However you can always add more later.

In the vendor stock number you can list as many blank numbers as you wish (up to 30 characters). The search is not case sensitive so it makes no difference if you enter upper or lower case letters. I use a space to separate different key numbers. You can use any keyboard character (actually any ASCII character) in a vendor stock number. What you use for the specialty keys is up to you as long as when you see the key you can remember what you used.

My best selling house keys are KW1, SC1, M1, L1, AR1, NA14, AM3, Y11, Y1

For car keys it is B91, B86, H75, Y159, HD103, TR47, DA31, DA34

I do program transponder keys and I do cut by code.

It is kind of difficult to cover 20 topics in one reply and cover them all well. Maybe we do 1 or 2 topics at a time and then when we have covered them move on to more?

Dale

Dale,

I'm learning a lot from you about keys. I'm still a noob when it comes to keys but I'm learning more every day. Sorry for so many questions.

Thanks for the E-Z key program. Will have a look at it shortly. I wasn't aware of it or that I could create my own E-Z key numbering. I know that ILCO bought a lot of the various key makers and that Silca and ILCO merged or one was bought out by the other or something like that. The number of key makers out there is quite small now compared to years ago.

The main supplier I use for keys does the same, sorts by "manufacturer name" and then by key number but they are also a locksmith and have a zillion keys. Since I don't have the experience on keys that they or you do, I do ask questions to learn and see what might be applicable to me and my situation.

They use plywood with nails holding the various keys and did up tags showing the ILCO key number with a cross reference to the other manufacturers numbers. This would be very difficult for me to replicate as I don't want all of the keys and I wouldn't have the space to store them all.

I'll have to do a review of what the competition is doing up here for key pricing and mark out the territory. Do the hardware stores, the mall key shops, the locksmiths and see where everyone is on a selection of keys. I know I am competitive against the locksmiths as they have a high/higher markup. I'm a bit higher on some keys, lower on others but I've got an easy markup to keep it simple for myself and my partner.

Keys start at $2.00
Plastic head regular keys are $3.00
Car keys are $3.00
Plastic head car keys are $4.00
Specialty/painted keys (Disney, hockey, etc) are $4.50 to $6.50, dependent on our cost.
The key pricing above includes our GST tax of six percent, dropping to five percent on January 1st.

I' ve got a few keys that I've picked up for one-offs that can sell for up to $20.00 and I have these set aside so my partner doesn't mess them up or sell them for cheap.

I have the ILCO pricing guide and I'm trying to see if I can make it easier on the number of price points rather than the 15 or 20 ones they have. I don't need to fine tune it to a quarter between this key and that one.

I don't have a tubular cutter or any of the other stuff so that keeps me out of most of it. Maybe over time, but too many things to do at present.

Thanks again for the comments, suggestions and information.

Reginald

Dale,

SWEEEEET! Nice program for finding keys.

I will ASSume that this is your creation. Very nice and definitely useful.

If I wanted to add in ILCO or other keys from the books I have that are missing or newly created, what would be the best way of doing so to keep a semblance of order in key information, especially if I don't know the COLE key equivalent?

I've pulled the ILCO catalog down and exported the data from its PDF files that could easily be imported into a database. I started a db of keys with fields for each manufacturer but it got unwieldy real quick with so many fields and usually so few keys. It was also a matter of getting all that data into the db.

Is there a way that key information in KEYFIND is marked for easier updating, so that if I were to enter in a pile of key information, that I could get it to you so you wouldn't have to enter it in yourself? No sense in having to reenter a pile of keys if you update the data, and some key info I might come across you might seldom see, or vice versa.

Is there any way of getting a listing of the keys? Are the DAT files in a specific format? Appears to be a text file in looking at one of the DAT files, but I haven't looked at any specifics.

With House, domestic car and import car, what about motorcycles, ATV's, etc? Or is this part of auto and it depends on domestic or import of the vehicle?

Thanks for access to KEYFIND. I will definitely be making use of it!



Reginald

Reginald,

You can create your own E-Z numbers, they will just not mean anything to anyone outside of your shops.

If you are purchasing your blanks from another locksmith then you should look for an actual lock and key wholesaler, they will probably be cheaper although they will have a minimum number of a key that you must purchase, usually 5 or 10.

I use “L” shaped curtain hooks to hang my keys and the hooks are labeled with only the E-Z number and the ILCO number I need to order more from my supplier like…
<pre>
KW1 SC1 SE1 Y1
1176 1145 1022 999
</pre>
I printed the numbers on regular sheets of paper and then taped them together and then cut them into panels and then glued them to plywood. I then screwed in the hooks below the numbers. Needless to say it is many years before I redo my panels.

The prices I charge for keys would not apply to you because my prices are in U.S. dollars and yours are in Canadian Dollars. Plus I probably pay a different price for blanks than you and my competitors charge different prices from yours.

A tubular cutter is only worth it if your customers are asking for tubular keys. And make sure that the keys they are asking for use the standard size as the blank 1137B. Many tubular keys are smaller (particularly the “U” bar bike locks like Kryptonite Locks). You do not want to get the machine only to find that 80% of the tubular keys your customer’s bring in your machine will not cut.

I did write the KeyFind program and it can be linked from the POS program so if you press [F4] from the POS.EXE main menu it will run KeyFind and then return you to the POS program when you are done looking up a key.

From the main KeyFind entry box you can press [F5] to add a new key. But it would be better if I finally got around to updating the database.

You really cannot use the data in the KeyFind program because it is in a format that is specifically designed to work with KeyFind.

The KeyFind program has over 500,000 data points. You will be hard pressed to find any blank used in the U.S. or Canada that is not listed in it unless the blank was created aver 2004 or is so rare or restricted that you will probably never sell one.

One other point about what keys to carry. There are series of keys, like the Sargent “L” series of blanks LA, LB, LC, LD, LE, etc, which have a “master” blank that will fit all the individual blanks. For the Sargent “L” series the master blank is LN. This means that of someone needs a Sargent LD key that you can copy it on a Sargent LN blank (S6) and it will work just fine. This means that you do not have to carry each of the Sargent “L” blanks, just LN to make them all. If a series is fairly common then you may want to carry each individual blank in the series but for uncommon series of blanks carry only the master blank.

Dale

Dale,

So cool, an add-on for your POS. In reading through the forums and instructions, I didn't see anything about it mentioned, not even in the instructions in the KEYFIND program.

Perhaps others can come up with other ideas to add into the POS, or maybe instead of KEYFIND it could be modified to support some other dataset of products, but you've probably got enough on your plate already.

That is some slick programming in getting 500,000 data points in such a small program and small sized set of data files. If I wore a hat, I would take it off to you.

Thanks for the info on the "master" key in a series. Does your program note the master status on such keys or just list it as a substitution for a specific key?

The company I usually get keys from is a distributor but they also have a locksmith shop as well, so it is usually a minimum of 5 or 10 keys per blank. I've also gotten some "samples" for keys that I was looking for, and as you stated, I never throw a blank away. So, I have the more popular keys that I buy in the 50 or 250 boxes, others I buy in the polybags of 5 or 10 keys. Specialty keys I can buy in 5 packs or a chunk of them are individual, perhaps at a small premium, but better than having a large inventory that doesn't sell or sell well. I can always get more keys, but only if there is money to do so. Difficult to trade key for key.

I have another distributor in town and they are the same, distribution out one side of the building, retail out the front. I've also got a large distributor that I can order from over the phone and have the product mailed to me as needed. Depends on whether speed is of the essence and sometimes it is worth it to pay a bit more to have a local supplier that I can call on when I need something special or fast.

My first key machine (Curtis) was bought at auction with a lot of older keys. I bought a Curtis key tower from the local rep loaded with keys, probably about the time Curtis went belly-up, but I was only aware that Curtis was toast when you told me. I've been buying various key blanks ever since as needed, mostly from the two local suppliers.

One of our mailbox clients is a locksmith doing mobile but who used to have a shop with a huge assortment of stuff. It's been in storage and I've been bugging him to get me some of his keys and other stuff that he wants to dispose of. Only thing so far from him though are a couple key towers I am using.

I may get another key tower from another mailbox client. He runs a number of buildings and has a locksmith on staff that he is having difficulties with, the locksmith having "lost" their key code cutter and our client says this guy may be preparing to move on.

I have to check on what is required for getting/operating a code cutter as I might be able to become the source for code cut keys for my client. It would cut down on his costs of maintaining equipment and keys although he would still need someone to go out and install/change locks as needed. He says he needs about 15 to 20 code cut keys a month and due to tolerances for keys needs them to be code cut rather than copied.

How many keys would you say I need to code cut a month to justify buying one? I think code cut keys are about $10 to $15 per key.

Thanks.

Reginald

Reginald,

Well it is sort of a secret feature. However if all of the POS files and all of the KEYFIND files in the same folder and then you download this file http://www.dhpos.com/nextfile.dat to the same folder then when you press [F4] from the main POS.EXE program it will execute the KEYFIND.EXE program and when you exit KEYFIND you will be back at the main menu of the POS program.

Unfortunately this deal will only run DOS software which must be programmed to link back to POS.EXE for this to work.

If you look in the ILCO key blank catalog it will list the different key series. For example in section 2, page 60 of the 1999 edition will be listed the Sargent “L” series. Following the lines connecting the keys downward will lead you to sub-master blanks until you get the bottom of the page which is the grand master blank.

Justifying getting a code machine would be based on the price you will have to pay for the machine in addition to price you will be charging for the keys. In addition if you are planning on cutting keys by serial number you will need code books or code software to convert the codes into cut numbers. For example if you get a code number from a dealer for a car key you will have to look up the code to get the numbers that you can use on the code machine.

Dale